Embracing Vulnerability with Holger Durre

In this episode, Fire Chief Holger Durre shares his inspiring journey from aspiring medical student to fire service leader, emphasizing the transformative power of resilience and vulnerability. Holger discusses how his experiences, including addiction recovery and key moments like 9/11, shaped his approach to leadership, focusing on civic engagement and fostering meaningful community partnerships. He sheds light on the evolving demands of the fire service, advocating for mental health support, peer resilience, and creating a culture of psychological safety for firefighters. Holger highlights the importance of honesty, self-awareness, and setting healthy boundaries, demonstrating how vulnerability is a strength in both personal and professional growth. This episode offers valuable insights into leading with empathy, building trust, and reshaping the future of the fire service.

Here are some key takeaways from this episode on Courage Unmasked:

About the Guest

Holger Durre, Fire Chief of the Prescott Fire Department in Arizona, brings over 26 years of distinguished experience in public safety. Before his appointment in March 2022, Chief Durre served in various leadership roles, including Deputy Fire Chief for Support Services at Boulder Fire-Rescue, where he successfully oversaw the department's budget, strategic planning, fleet, and facilities. A credentialed Chief Fire Officer and graduate of the National Fire Academy's Executive Fire Officer program, Chief Durre is recognized for his expertise in fire suppression, emergency medical services, community risk reduction, and administration. His leadership has been pivotal in advancing strategic planning initiatives and ensuring contemporary, responsive services for the Prescott community. Chief Durre's commitment to honoring the legacy of firefighters and promoting public safety education further underscores his dedication to fostering a culture of excellence and resilience within the Prescott Fire Department.

‍‍Transcript

Carol Park (Host)
00:03
Hi everybody, welcome to the Courage Unmasked podcast. I am super excited today that we have Fire Chief Holger Durrett with us today. First, I just want to say, chief Durrett, thank you for your service as a first responder, so grateful for the work that you and your comrades, your colleagues, do to help others, to serve others, and so thank you. And then, secondly, thank you for being a guest on the podcast. Like I said, I'm super excited that you're here. So let's just start with you telling us a little bit about how you became a firefighter or your journey to there, and then how you became a chief of a fire department.

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Holger Durre (Guest)
00:49
Yeah, sure, well, first of all, thank you for the accolades, and they really kind of go to the firefighters that are working on, sit behind a desk all day long and give them the tools to do that job. But I do appreciate it, especially, of course, on behalf of the industry. We definitely appreciate when we hear that. So, and more than anything, thank you for the opportunity to talk, because you know, as we chatted before this show started, it's just a passion of both of ours and you know a lot of folks in the fire service. We know some folks that are also doing this work. So, but yeah, let's talk about the journey, right.

So I was going to go to medical school and, right as I was going into my undergrad, got an EMT certificate, mainly to get more skills. Well, that made me get a job with an ambulance service and I started falling in love with public safety in general, mainly because it really connected with my need to serve others. It really is a passion of mine and, interestingly enough, I think service is going to come up a couple of times throughout this podcast, because service is one of the things that keeps me healthy. Actually, I just had to figure out a better way of doing it than I was, maybe initially at the beginning of my career. But as I started progressing through my fire service career, I got on with the same fire department that I was working with, the ambulance service with, so same town, fort Collins, colorado. And you know, first my fire service career started very much like a lot of firefighters you know got assigned to the engine and really excited I was in my early 20s. It was just an amazing time, right, and I thought I was indestructible. Yeah, it was definitely just, you know, one of those innocent times of your adulthood, if you can say that.

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Carol Park (Host)
02:40
Yeah, this is the 20s for sure. In our 20s. We're all invincible, for sure, oh exactly.

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Holger Durre (Guest)
02:46
You know, everything was fantastic so and then 9-11 happens. And 9-11 was kind of my first exposure to really looking this industry into its soul and figuring out what my part was in it and how my future was going to go in it. And you know, a couple of years went by and I got assigned to fire prevention early on in my career, about four and a half years into my career, and that was one of the best things that could have ever happened to me, because what it forced me to do is to get off the big red truck for a little bit Ironically, it was a big white truck in Fort Collins at that time, was a big white truck in Fort Collins at that time and figure out how public entities fit into the community and what public entities do for their communities and really how much there is to be done in terms of civic engagement in this kind of work. And it really got me beyond thinking just about the 15 minutes of an emergency response call. I really started falling in love with public administration. I love the fire service. But then really there was this thing new passion, right, new fire in my belly and I ended up getting a master's degree in public administration as part of that, and then knew that I wanted to make an impact on the nexus of what I just talked about, that civic engagement. How can we be a responsible partner with our communities? How can we do more than just respond? And that's when the career journey started really was.

I knew that I wanted to be a fire chief for a couple of reasons. I mentioned service before. I wanted to be in a position where I could be of service and I view my role that way that I'm giving back not just to the community but also to the firefighters that I work with. And you know, now that I'm a city fire department chief, I also try to be of service to the other departments. You know, a fire department as an external service partner tends to take a lot from the other departments and I want to try to be mindful as much as possible to give back in right. Well, that led then to me leaving for Collins as a battalion chief, going to Boulder for five years as a deputy chief. That was the first time I worked for a city. And then this opportunity came up here in Prescott and it was literally it couldn't have come at a better time for so many reasons, but it is where I feel the most fulfilled I've had in my entire career.

It's a connection with people and not just a fire department. It's a connection with the community, connection with the other folks in the city. It's just a great place to work and that's how I came to be a fire chief. There's, of course, a lot of other folks in the city. It's just a great place to work and that's how I came to be a fire chief. There's, of course, a lot of other stuff in there. Your previous guest, doug Kopp, and I started in the same fire department and we actually went to the National Fire Academy, to the executive fire officer program, you know, at chief school, as they call it, after he had already left for Collins, and so it's really kind of cool that you know, in a way, we we bumped into the same person that got to meet you.

Carol Park (Host)

‍It is so wild. Yes, when he said I had mentioned your name and he said that y'all knew each other and had gone to fire school, I was like, wow, what a small world. You know, yeah, you know you talked about in there your value of service, and I know you and I have talked about and listeners of the podcast know that a lot of this stems from Brene Brown's work around vulnerability, which I always talk about uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure but in her work she definitely talks about when we're going into that arena of vulnerability, we have to have our values in front of you. So I hear very clearly that you are speaking to your value of service, which is so much of what you let, what led you into this. So yeah, so really too. Let's talk a little bit about that vulnerability. So vulnerability, as you know, often gets a bad rap, especially in high stress professions like firefighting. Can you speak to how you define vulnerability in the context of your work as a fire chief?

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Holger Durre (Guest)

‍06:57
Yeah, absolutely. I would say. I'll start that answer the way I'm going to finish the answer, which is you have to absolutely know yourself at a deeper level and you know, vulnerability is scary, it's uncertain, it's like you said, especially in a profession like this, it can be extremely intimidating. But back to the value piece. I think you brought up a really great point there. Right, I knew what attracted me to this profession service others.

But the problem is for me, as I was going throughout my career, I was using that almost as a crutch, and there to me is a place where service becomes selfish because you're feeding something inside of you that is really just for you. Now, service in and of itself is, of course, very fulfilling I'm not downplaying that but basically I can tell you from my experience I had taken it to a level that was not healthy. You know. It was something that I was, in essence, now no longer doing the act of service for the other person. It was really just to fill my cup, and that is a problem and the reason why I say that, in terms of vulnerability, there's a lot of journey. I'm a recovering alcoholic and am a proud recovering alcoholic because it made me face my own vulnerability. I had to. For instance, what I just articulated to you about my relationship with service as a value didn't come until I had to do such deep work in recovery that I would have not been confronted with otherwise. So for me, I say it's easy now because I got hit upside the head with a brick, basically my own doing right, and it was life-saving, literally, you know, for me. But it was also the place where I could finally understand, you know, because I'd read Brene Brown even before I went into recovery and the principles and the concept made so much more sense to me once.

I had to get past that divide because, as I mentioned, I could not escape from who I was, and prior to that it was a constant escape. Everything that I was doing in my world, whether it was those acts of service or drinking, it was all about that escape from having to confront who I really am, at my very core and in order for me to admit not only that I had faults, which I always knew, but also what do I do with those faults. That's what helped me Now to me, that's why vulnerability can be a useful tool if you're facing it for purpose. I was able because there was this nexus of recovery and me being so frustrated with my life and so many in my life being frustrated with me that I had to kind of confront me on a whole different level. It wasn't transactional anymore. I had to.

I had to transform where the consequences were going to be severe, and that caused me to really understand that it's not so scary after all. That really the thing that you're pushing back against the most because you're so afraid doing the opposite and just kind of leaning into it and letting yourself fall just a little bit. There is the safety net of vulnerability right behind it, and the reason why I use that term it sounds kind of weird, right? Oh, I love it Is because in that safety net is where I could safely live with vulnerability, not just try it out every once in a while, not just use it, as with vulnerability, not just try it out every once in a while, not just use it as a slogan, not just use it as a bumper sticker.

Right, and even in the interview for this job I mentioned right away that I was in recovery. If you had told me that even a year before I said that, I would have been mortified, absolutely mortified, you know, and it was not vulnerability for effect, it was not vulnerability for acceptance, it was not vulnerability to be somebody that I wasn't Itets of recovery is. I have to be radically honest as much as I humanly can in my life, and including with myself. That means that I am having, just because of my personality, I have to live very close to that edge of, like I said, doing things like what I just mentioned, saying, yeah, you know, it wasn't that it was out of context, it was in the context of the question I was answering at the time and I felt like it was very important for me to make sure that they understood that.

Because, again, you mentioned values. I had a significant value problem before I had to go into recovery and that vulnerability is what opened the door to all the other values that now are so fundamental to making me a happier person, a more fulfilled person. But here's the thing A person is now of service to others in a healthy way. I don't cross boundaries, I don't do it for myself completely. I mean, here's the object honesty, right. Do you ever do something that's completely selfless? Well, you know, probably not. But I like to make sure that that equation is 95% in the other person's favor, and that was definitely something that changed for me, and vulnerability was sort of the passport that got me there.

Carol Park (Host)
12:49
You know, another one of Brene's sayings is owning our story and ourselves through the process is the most courageous thing we'll ever do, which, as you're alluding to, takes so much vulnerability. But I think, a lot of times too that we think that owning our story is owning it with all the other people. But even as you've alluded to your recovery process, it's like I think, first and foremost, we own our story with ourselves, which takes a lot of shame, resilience, you know, we come to that place where we go oh, this part of me that, oh, I'm seeing and I don't want other people to see. We own that first with ourselves in a loving, self-compassionate way, which I hear what you're saying about, the bumper stickers Sometimes this language has become what I call cliche Just say, oh, vulnerability, oh self, self compassion and we know I mean vulnerability takes courage, it is not weakness, it is courage and self compassion also very cliche, but practicing self kindness, knowing we're all humans, we're all in this together, we all make mistakes, we all fail, and then being very clear, as you alluded to as well, to our boundaries, where other people begin and end and where we begin and end, and not crossing those as we do our work.

So, gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so again grateful for you now on so many levels, of you just being able to own your story and share it. So I the other thought in that is knowing that in fire service, you know as a firefighter, where mental toughness is often emphasized, how do you encourage your team to open up about their struggles, whether personal or professional, without feeling weak, and perhaps something about the boundaries in there too? But you know, I see your courage and your strength and vulnerability. How does that kind of trickle down? How does that work with you as a fire chief?

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Holger Durre (Guest)

‍15:00
Well, first of all, I can always do better. Right, and I don't say that facetiously, because I do feel that being open and honest about my own journey helps others own theirs. And I knew, coming into the role of being the fire chief, that I had a significant amount of influence around how those conversations are. And I don't mean to be too heady, but like almost at the subconscious level of the organization. Right, I mean culture. Like they say, when you look at a brick wall, culture is the mortar between the bricks. It's not the bricks, it's where are those micro decisions made? Right, when somebody decides to seek help or decides to be vulnerable? Right. And you would think that in the fire service we live together. Most fire departments now are staffed in such a way that you basically live at your job for half your life. Yeah, it is very difficult to engage in that level of vulnerability. I knew that if I was willing to talk about it and, more than anything, model it, that would hopefully start turning the tide.

Now I have to say something here that's extraordinarily important. I am the luckiest fire chief on the face of this planet because of my department. I have firefighters that are emotionally intelligent. They are dedicated to the community in a way that I've not experienced in my community. That's not saying anything bad about the firefighters I worked with before at all, but I really got lucky when I got to be here and it happened to be that that approach of leadership, of saying I'm going to live out front and make it okay, of saying I'm going to live out front and make it okay, helped, hopefully, some others. Now I have had some experiences since I've been here that folks have relayed to me that because of my approach and because of me sharing my history and my past, it helped them take action, come forward, even reach out to me and want to ask.

Right, I mean there's some questions. There's a lot of organizations. I would never call the fire chief to say, hey, I'm struggling with this thing, right, and making it okay, even when it's difficult. Right, I mean I am in charge of making sure our policies get followed, our regulations get followed, and a lot of vulnerability can be right at the fringe level of that right. I mean somebody doesn't want to disclose they may have screwed something up, and there's a time and a place for that right.

But at the end of the day, it's the human interaction and it's the culture that you start slowly building through setting up an environment where you're willing to be like that and and and you know, I mean the literature is filled with it, right Owning your mistakes genuinely, not just because you want the problem to go away. Being willing to accept others even if it's not convenient for you, right, I mean that's. It sounds kind of strange, but it's like. You know, if I viewed my organization in a transactional way, I would be let down every day. I just choose not to see it that way. I have rock stars, and I'm not saying rock stars because I ignore the faults or the problem is quite the opposite. I truly do have rock stars. The thing that I'm talking about here is I'm trying as much as possible not to bring my needs and my biases which is impossible, but I try, right, not to bring my biases into this so that it hopefully sets a tone of safety.

Yeah, Psychological safety safety of being ourselves, safety of making mistakes in the right way, owning those mistakes, but, you know, being willing to fail forward, those kind of things. I mean now I'm using cliches too, but um, but it, it really is one of those things that, um, I got to be in this role. I decided early on. I get to experiment what it looks like for me to be fire chief. I could have tried to copy other fire chiefs. I would have failed miserably.

Um, I had to be me, and one of those things being me is what I just talked about. It's hopefully being a little bit more approachable than some, making sure that I accept my needs in stride and my you know, and have my ego in a place where I can hold myself accountable so others don't have to. Now, I fail, I fail daily, I do, and it's. But again, it's that environment, that willingness, right, yeah, that you start seeing things in the environment. There are opportunities for building a more vulnerable culture when you shift your perspective to see it. Yeah, and that is my job, right, I mean, there's informal leaders, and if the fire chief doesn't believe in it and isn't willing to do the work himself or herself, then it can only go so far, yeah.

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Carol Park (Host)

20:16
You know? I am just curious did you because you said you have a team of rock stars did you inherit that or do you think that you helped to build and grow that?

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Holger Durre (Guest)
20:29
Our firefighters are an extension of an amazing community. Okay, that Our firefighters are an extension of an amazing community, okay, they are our department in the state of Arizona and they are a expression of our community's philosophy, our community's culture. A lot of them grew up here. That's also fairly rare for American fire departments anymore. You know, we've got folks that are commuting 150 miles. Right, our folks are connected because it's their hometown and there are generations of firefighting families here in Prescott that go way back when. You know, we were also the department that had the Grand Mountain Hotshot tragedy and that, of course, impacted us at a significant level.

But, more than anything, I sometimes say that being a fire chief is like being a comedian. It's about timing. When I showed up, I got lucky because my personality and where I was at in my own journey and in my own life and my characteristics matched up perfectly where the organization was and hopefully still is, and it really started opening doors. Right, but it was there all along, right, I, I, I've seen organizations where you really, okay, we gotta, we gotta turn the ship, we gotta, you know, confront toxic cultures and you know, I'm fortunate I don't have that.

Yeah, and, like I said, that's why I can't speak more highly of our team, because they have their priorities exactly where it should be, and it makes those conversations around vulnerability easier. Now, if there's firefighters listening out there, we're still firefighters. We still do the stuff at the kitchen table that happens at kitchen tables everywhere in the United States. We still do all those things. It's partially what makes this profession so awesome, but there's just a different flavor that you feel the first second you walk through a fire station door here in Prescott and that was there long before I ever showed up.

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Carol Park (Host)
22:39
Wow, I mean it sounds like an amazing culture and amazing team. And yeah, just to hear to the impact of the community that it's a two way street. I actually truly never thought of it that way. So that the community really has helped flavor the culture of the fire department too. That's kind of mind-boggling, but I get it, you know. So thank you for sharing that too.

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Holger Durre (Guest)
23:06
Yeah, it's that civic engagement, civic connection I was talking about. You know, I get to actually live it here it's yeah, that's incredible.

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Carol Park (Host)
23:14
That's incredible. So, yeah, I know we've touched on a little bit, but with the vulnerability and again, it's a profession where you have to be strong and so a lot of times vulnerability is considered weakness and again we keep highlighting it's actually courage, it's just quite the counter to weakness. It takes so much courage to move into that uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure. So, knowing that with firefighting, PTSD, burnout, stress, mental health issues which sometimes it can be hard to be vulnerable and to open up and share that you may need help because you're used to being strong and helping others, you know. So how does that work within your team or within the fire department?

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Holger Durre (Guest)
24:07
Well, let's talk about the fire service in general, because this is one aspect of our profession that I'm really proud of, of the fire service in general, because this is one aspect of our profession that I'm really proud of, not because I did anything, but because of where the fire service is at now and where it's heading. We're doing a far better job than we used to with mental health support. We're doing a far better job with being more in touch with the true grind of this profession. Yeah, we run difficult calls. There's no doubt about it. But what I think a lot of folks, especially outside the fire service, sometimes often overlook is the daily grind. American fire departments, exclusively, are busier than they've ever been before. We're all hazards responders, which means not only is it more calls that are more complex, but we also have no more. We have to be responsible for more things. And the other piece is we are also a sort of a safety net right for the communities, and that means we run a lot of lower acuity calls that are very important. You know these people need help, but they're not necessarily the lights and sirens responses, and there are plenty of places included here where we do a lot of that low acuity work that can lead to compassion fatigue, that can lead to not being able to absorb the other bigger shocks that you know that naturally come in this profession and we just weren't doing a good enough job for, you know, maybe the last I would say five to 10 years I started really seeing it in the fire service. Our tragedy kind of fast forwarded it here. But, for instance, one of the things that is now commonplace with American fire departments is to have a contract with a culturally competent clinical provider, not just one person, but usually a set of providers that is able to provide confidential, effective care, not just when firefighters are in crisis, it's also when we are just OK, you know, checking the oil in the car. It's also when we are just OK, you know, checking the oil in the car. And those are things that I've really seen change over the last, like I said, five years. That is super encouraging to me. Now, in terms of what happens when you see a firefighter struggle right, what happens when we face somebody in crisis.

Well, for me, getting back to personal sides of things, I went through that. You know, I lived basically the majority of my career in not knowing at the time in a constant cycle of dealing with those stresses, the PTSD, you know, the fatigue, sleep deprivation and all of those things. But I just thought it was part of the background noise of what was going on. And over that time I departed from so many things, the joys in my life, values that I really held dear, that it just became easier just to cope in different ways. And because it was so gradual and over time, right, I didn't really realize what was happening until it had really gotten pretty severe. And so the nice thing about now I say nice I have the ability, when somebody else is facing something similar, not only to understand what they're going through but also to have, hopefully, next level solutions.

Now for us. You know, if the fire chief doesn't show up and gets you into treatment, that's not how this works. You know you got to have confidentiality. I mean, of course, if they asked me to be there I would. But this is where our peer support comes in. Most American fire service have peer support members. The IFF has a center for excellence in Maryland they're actually building one, I think, on the West coast as well for first responder recovery.

There's plenty of recovery centers and when I say the word recovery, right, most people think, oh, that must be about substance abuse. Okay, yeah, there's part of that, right. But I can tell you, at least in my experience. First of all, almost most people, but definitely most first responders, don't go into recovery or treatment because of a substance alone. It is usually because they have other co-occurring issues that likely were there before they went into the profession.

That environment that I just talked about just begins to exacerbate, and that was definitely the case in my situation. Yeah, I've seen some stuff in my career. I can tell you that that was not what got me to saying I'm done, I need to fix some stuff. You know, I had that set of luggage long before I even filed my first application to be a firefighter. And so for me now, like I said, that's why I feel like I'm lucky, because I can at least relate, I can guide that conversation from my current role without giving up my role at the same time you know that could be a slippery slope, sure, but also, at the same time, when I see opportunities for us to partner with clinically competent providers, this opportunity to talk to you, then hopefully that helps others know that it's okay, you know, and we have to find a way, and it's of course in society too.

But we have to figure out a way to get over this part of this profession to where we can get to a stage of being more able to absorb those stresses. Those stresses are always going to be there. We can do all kinds of things right, like I could, on my whiteboard, draw all kinds of programs and strategies and and and and. You know, oh, let's lower, lower QD calls, and at the end of the day there's human. Oh, let's lower low acuity calls, and at the end of the day there's human beings that get on those fire trucks every day.

Those human beings have hearts, they have the feelings, they care deeply. That's why they're there to begin with, and they get hit by that compassion, fatigue and those moral injuries constantly. You know, and the more I think we can bring that to the surface in a healthy way it's basically, I guess I would say, vulnerability at the profession level, not just at the individual level the better it'll be. And, like I said, I'm so happy to see that the fire service is on this journey and that they're walking that way. There's still lots of work to be done but again, culturally, you will now see a conference slate of classes and it's almost impossible these days to take a fire service conference, you know in aggregate, and not see at least one or two pieces of that conference talking about mental health, resiliency, physical illness. That's 15 years ago, that wasn't the case.

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Carol Park (Host)
31:11
Yeah, I believe that and I think it's leaders like yourself, like Fire Chief Doug Kupp, you know, willing to share stories, be vulnerable in the leadership and then the trickle down so that again that psychological safety that you talked about, so people can feel safe to open up, have trust, to share when they have a need. I think I hear the change and I know that you're part of the change. So amazing and thank you. Yeah, so kind of, maybe just in closing here any words of advice that you'd give to young incoming firefighters or just to the profession in general.

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Holger Durre (Guest)
32:01
Sure, I'd say three things. First of all, never let the profession define who you are. A lot of this advice comes from me personally. You know, when I first got into this role it's very common in a public safety profession or any kind of profession, I think where there's a uniform involved. You know you end up almost subconsciously becoming a firefighter by identity. You know, I was for a long time a firefighter first, and everything else second. But you know, first you are you. That's number one. You can't run away from yourself. It's impossible. You are a son, a daughter, a husband, a wife, a father, a mother. You're a friend. You might be an athlete, you might be, you know, a musician. Those pieces of your identity are, as if not more important than this profession.

This profession is one of those professions where it does consume everything. You don't find accountants at get togethers talking about their profession the way that firefighters talk about it their get togethers. I've not yet seen an accountant that wears a t-shirt that resembles anything about their profession while they're off duty. You know it's locked into our identity everywhere. Don't let that siren run you over the rocks is basically what I'm saying. There is make sure you've got who you are figured out, solid and that you've got an identity well beyond that. The second thing is we're extraordinarily fortunate. This is one of the professions that gets to see not only amazing human suffering but also amazing human triumph and resilience and grit, not just in the calls that we run but, you know, even in each other. You know, I've seen bravery not in the way that most people think about bravery, but in that vulnerability sense in this profession from my coworkers over and over and over again. And that is such a fortunate thing, especially for a newer firefighter. Coming into this industry is, even when it gets frustrating, you feel burned out. Never forget how incredible this profession is. We are so fortunate that we get to do this work and that gratitude that comes from that is what's gonna get you through a lot of rough spots.

The last thing I would say and this is you know, I think, where the fire service needs to head next is we're still a fire department that, by and large, runs on 24-hour shifts or different versions of 24-hour shifts. The average work week for an American firefighter is 56 hours. It's 2,912 hours a year. So if you do the math, that's a third of your life. So over the course of your career, if you worked no overtime, attended no committee meetings or anything else a third of your life, you're living in something that's not your house house.

Now, the reality is is that staffing is difficult, the workload is, you know, high, and so there's a lot of overtime and forced overtime. And then that identity issue. You know this is a job that is with you when you're at work and away from work. We need to figure out a way as an industry to get us away from a 56 hour work week. Now notice, I didn't say away from a 24 hour shift, because I think, culturally, there are some things there that are really beneficial and valuable.

Um, but we have to figure out a way to get our firefighters in an environment where they're not just absolutely baseline exhausted just by the base work schedule. You know, pilots have figured it out, over-the-road truckers have figured it out, medical residents have figured it out. You know, and we have to, I think, now come to the table and do the same thing, and I think the solution there is community relevance. It's how do we build again back to that civic connection, right? What's the role of this fire department in this community? If we're not relevant to the community, then we don't exist.

And I think the solution to what I'm talking about is not just in saying, oh great, let's get a forced shift on, or, you know, let's do this. That is, yeah, part of the solution, but I think what we have to do is we have to figure out what the identity looks like for the fire service over the next 25, 50, 75 years, and that is going to be the work of those that come after the current generation. That's here I mean, yeah, our younger firefighters. They're going to be fire chiefs, uh, towards the end of their career. I, I hope that that is the conversations that they have. I'm starting those. We're actually having a conversation here about shift schedules.

Now, you know, and, like I said, shift schedules is just one tiny little piece of this. It's really figuring out a better way for us to live, because when the fire service started, right before the Fair Labor Standards Act came in the 70s, there were two shifts in American fire departments, and when FLSA and the 207k exemptions came, that's when the third shift started. Well, now, washington, oregon, florida, there's a lot of departments that are going to a fourth shift. Well, again, like I said, great, it's moving towards the right thing, but still right, you're still running those low QD calls that we're talking about. You're still in that environment that you're talking about and so, like I said, the third thing I would say is to those firefighters coming after me help us fix that.

You know we'll be there to help you, obviously, as much as I can help. I've got another good 12 to 15 years left in my career and I'll do whatever I can to make sure that I'm part of that solution. But I really throw that challenge to that generation, knowing that they're unbelievably capable, because we have firefighters now that are so much more well-balanced than we were when my generation came in, which was we took every overtime that we could. Now our firefighters come in with their head set on right going hey, I need to be with my family, I don't want to be at work all the time. Exactly, thank you, you know. And so really, you know the challenge is not fully passed on to the next generation yet, but I'm hoping they take us up on the invitation to fix it with us.

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Carol Park (Host)
38:24
I do too, and I hear your leadership in it, your forward thinking, your passing the torch so that it can be for future generations of firefighters a better environment, if you will. So again, I'm just so grateful that you came on the podcast today. So so much wisdom, so many words of wisdom, and again, thank you for your own personal vulnerability, but also just the culture that you're creating and building. It's amazing. So again, thank you, Chief Holger Dura, for being on our podcast today.

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Holger Durre (Guest)
39:04
Well, thank you, I really appreciate the opportunity.