The Art of Patience in Leadership with Doug Cupp

What drives a person to risk their life for others? Fire Chief Doug Cupp shares his extraordinary journey, shaped by a profound commitment to service and a pivotal life-saving moment in Nags Head, North Carolina. This episode unravels the essence of vulnerability and leadership through Doug’s experiences, mentorship, and dedication to his team. Discover how one rescue operation ignited a career built on courage, trust, and self-reflection.

With nearly three decades in firefighting, Doug offers a unique perspective on leadership growth and the power of self-compassion. We delve into the challenges of transitioning into leadership roles, the art of patience, and learning from mistakes. Inspired by Brene Brown’s insights on vulnerability, Doug explores the unpredictable nature of real-life situations and how fostering a growth mindset can lead to personal and professional transformation.

Explore the transformative power of psychological safety and trust in high-pressure environments. This episode emphasizes the importance of creating a culture where failure is seen as a stepping stone to success, not a setback. By honoring the fire service and exploring diverse experiences, we highlight the traits that define effective leaders. Join us for a heartfelt conversation about serving communities, embracing vulnerability, and shaping a more resilient future for those who courageously serve.

Here are some key takeaways from this episode on Courage Unmasked:

About the Guest

Doug Cupp is a seasoned fire service professional with over 24 years of experience in emergency management, leadership, and organizational development. As a former Fire Chief and National Fire Academy instructor, he has responded to major disasters, including wildfires, hurricanes, and floods. Doug holds advanced degrees in Safety and Emergency Management and Outdoor Leadership and has furthered his education at the Harvard Kennedy School. Through his firm, Doug Cupp & Associates, he offers leadership coaching, team building, strategic planning, and keynote speaking, focusing on creating high-performing teams, fostering a culture of safety, and building resilient organizations. Currently, Doug Cupp is the Fire Chief at Greater Eagle Fire District located in Colorado.

‍‍Transcript

Carol Park (Host): 0:03

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Courage Unmasked podcast again, where we're shining the light on vulnerability and the courage of vulnerability. And I'm really excited today to introduce to you our guest, Doug Cupp, who is a fire chief and certainly understands vulnerability. He's also had lots of experience in leadership and so he's going to also share with us vulnerability and leadership. So, again, super excited to have you here today, Doug, so thank you for being our guest.

‍Doug Cupp (Guest): 0:41

Well, thank you. I appreciate the time and definitely dedication to learning about vulnerability.

Carol Park (Host): 0:48

Well, we're excited to have you, so tell us a little bit about how you chose your profession and how you became a fire chief.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 0:58

Yeah, you know, I think my story might be similar to a lot where I feel like I did not choose the profession, but maybe the profession chose me. And you know we come up with a lot of plans in life and other things happen. So the son of a veterinarian, you know I think he always wanted us to kind of venture into that world and we as the kids we kind of did. But you know mine took more of. The one piece that I remember the most about my dad was that you know he did a lot of emergencies, you know animals in crisis, you know something got hit by a car or was really sick and he would drop whatever he was doing and, you know, go to help a family that had was losing a pet or you know a loved one like that. And I remember the, the service that he he always provided to his customers and the great work that he felt. And so I I wasn't really interested in the veterinary medicine so much, but I spent a little bit of time, you know, getting my, you know just putting my toes in the water a little bit, and in emergency services and I started working on a beach for a fire department in Nags Head, north Carolina, and so we worked for the fire department but we were kind of just doing ocean rescue and so we just kind of ran one division of it which was just all the ocean rescue type stuff and EMS that happens on the beach. And you know, it was just a great summer job while I was going to school and I didn't really have anything particular of doing that for a living, but a couple of seasons of that I really loved being able to be a part of a great team and we came from all different walks of life. We had people that were ex-military, we had people that were in the fire service and did this as another part of the job and just through all those conversations they just get you really, you know, fired up and and a sense of belonging. This is, these are your people. They understand you; they're in for the same reasons. You know they're all hilarious, they're all really fun people and they take the work serious and so.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 3:19

But we had a pretty critical call one day and I found myself in a section of beach where I was completely alone, and we're usually paired up in a couple of teams, but I got there real early in the morning and noticed that there was a family in great distress and they did not speak English, they were of foreign descent and I'm trying to make myself very aware to them that I'm here and I couldn't tell what was going on. They could not communicate to me; I could not understand the stress that they were having. I'm looking in the water, I'm trying to find out what's going on. I don't see anything that's bringing attention. Maybe it's just a family fight, a family disagreement going on, but it started to really stress me out and I remember, you know, just kept looking at the horizon, looking for anything of why they may be in so much distress. Uh, and I saw it and there was a body in the water and, uh, look pretty lifeless. And so, not to draw a long story, but it ended up having a positive outcome to where it was a very long swim, a very long rescue, and did it, you know, pretty much solo, with a few bystanders that helped and just directed them and, yeah, it had a positive outcome. You know she was lifeless, pulseless, you know, not breathing, and we brought her back to where she spent some time in the hospital, but just a couple of days she left the hospital, walked out and had no issues long-term issues from what had happened.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 4:53

And that moment, right there, I thought, if that only happens one more time in my career, my career is worth it. But one of the things I really remember about it was that I don't really think about the training. I don't remember thinking about how to do CPR. I didn't think about how to do the rescue, it just did it. And so, I pay so much respect to the people that trained me and had a devotion to training people like me to where we didn't think we were on autopilot and all those stressors that we had is, am I going to remember what to do? Am I going to remember how to do it? Um, you just did it and you know you fought through the exhaustion, you fought through everything, and it was amazing. And so, at that point I said I don't know what my plan was. But now I have a plan and so I moved out West to start working into the wildfire area.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 5:47

I really enjoyed the wilderness aspect and wildfires and and pretty quickly got a job working in Fort Collins for Poudre Fire Authority, where Holger Durr, who was on your show, but I worked together in that, in that world and you know what a great fire department and you know, uh, worked together in that, in that world and, uh, you know what a great fire department and you know it happened really quickly to be able to get a job and be able to move through the ranks. I had incredible mentors, uh, that pushed me to. You know, push me, get an? Uh, go to school, get a master's degree, go through leadership trainings and courses and just really improve my craft and my ability, but also pass it on to the up and comers and pass along what I'm learning onto them, just as my mentors did for me. And so, I never really thought I wanted to be a fire chief. It was just something that you know. It didn't have the glory; it just had the stress and the politics. It just did not look like anything I really wanted to do. But you know things, things change in your career, and you start to get a calling where others you know consulting firms and people are talking.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 7:00

And I think the first time that I became at that level of a division chief was working up in the mountains and really enjoyed that particular area. And it was a training chief job where I loved training. I loved being able to keep people safe through training and educate them and let them learn from my mistakes that I had made so hopefully they wouldn't make the same mistakes I did, and I really loved it and it just kept fostering that passion I had of mentoring others, showing people how to be successful in their careers and all those pieces. And so I was jumping back and forth doing some wildfire management for the County. I was, uh, I did an interim chief job for a really small volunteer fire department that allowed me, like tiptoe into being a fire chief with you know just kind of part-time position that they had, um, and I thought, man, I'm really enjoying this. I really love giving back to the community. I love that challenge. That truly it is. Every day is a challenge as a fire chief. But it didn't take too long before, you know, things were going really well, and I thought I was just pretty happy.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 8:14

And another consulting firm at Dalton said your name comes up a lot in this area, about thinking about being a fire chief over an eagle, and I said, oh, that's interesting. I've never really had a interest in being a fire chief. It just kind of happened and we talked for a while. And then they asked me if I would apply and I said, well, I'm not. I'm not sure I'm cut out for it, but I'll think about it.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 8:40

And I remember he called like the day before the applications everything we're doing goes. I thought we talked about this. I thought you were going to apply. Have not seen your application. I said I'm still thinking about it because it's due today. And I said, well, it's all ready. I just really want to make sure that I'm the right fit for that organization and that I'm prepared to take on those challenges and I don't want to let anyone down. And he said, well, that's up for us to decide. If you're ready and you're the good fit, so just apply and then we will determine whether you're a good fit. That gave me comfort to know that I don't have to be the best, I have to be the right fit. And that's what I wanted.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 9:23

And so they ended up giving me the job. They took back several uh, top candidates and went through a process and I was able to be myself. I had no worries. I was going to be myself and what type of leader I was going to be. And if it worked out, great. And if I didn't, I knew it just wasn't a good fit and none of us would be happy. Uh, but they did go with me and so I've been there eight years now and very happy with it. I'm glad I put down my fears of what I thought being a fire chief would be. I thought you know, stand up to the challenges. I know how, I've known how to do that, so you know work through that again and it's been a great eight years. It really has been Wow and it's been a great eight years.

Carol Park (Host): 10:05

It really has been. Wow. Your story of even how you got into the profession pretty amazing. And then the call that you started to feel and hear along the way really amazing. And two things that stood out to me as you were talking teams, you mentioned very early on that you were a part of a team, you felt like you belonged, and your natural leadership, which apparently continued to just from that first crisis moment on the beach where you did lead, you were looking and you led and the positive outcome. But then that leadership that just keeps showing up. So, as you were rising through the ranks and people were noticing and identifying you as a leader and asking you to come and apply as the leader, is there a certain like, maybe lesson that stands out to you about leadership along the way?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 11:09

Oh, I think there's so many lessons. Uh, you know, leadership is such a journey, you know it's. You think it's like an end state, but it's, it's not. It's a journey and everyone's taking their path to it. And I certainly had you know those hard knocks and some, some very weird mindsets. You know, when you I'm coming on 30 years now in the fire service and that alone scares me, holy cow, that is a lot, um.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 11:37

But you know, you, you try to reflect back on some of those lessons and you know some of the things that I did not have a good mindset at certain times where you're wanting to step up into roles that you're not actually ready for, you just wouldn't. You wanted the challenge, you wanted to grow, you wanted these things, but maybe you just you weren't ready yet, you didn't have the tools, you didn't have the right mentoring yet, and, um, the time would come and go and she felt like, oh, I'm kind of a failure, I didn't do well in that promotion, I'm not ready, and but there's a reason for that. And so you're also learning patience. You're also learning, um, when you don't have all the right tools yet, um, but it also allows you to know what I need to achieve, to be ready, to be ready to serve in a different capacity. When you start to become leaders of leaders, it's a big jump in your career.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 12:35

You know leading, you know an engine company, or a truck company is one thing. I mean, they're all. They're all great leaders. But when you are now supervising supervisors of other supervisors and you're just trying to not tell them how to do it, but like how to lead in that chaotic environment and so sometimes those hard knocks are great and you take those with um as a great opportunity to learn to say why, why was I in a rush? Or why didn't I say no, uh to those? Uh, why did I say yes, uh, to some of the others? And you know how would I do that again? Um, you know, and self-reflection is such, a, such a huge piece of leadership of making sure you go back and look at how did I get here and are there better ways? Am I happy with you, know that journey, what do I need to change to make sure that the next journey is even better?

Carol Park (Host): 13:33

So, I hear the self-awareness or the self-reflection that's in there. You've mentioned mentoring along the way, patience, which I think it's patience with yourself, right, where it's like being able to find some of that self-compassion with the hard knocks. Brown's work, again, where she says when we go into the arena, meaning the arena of vulnerability, uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure, you're going to have failures. We're humans, right, and so how do we take the hard knocks, be able to use those to become better leaders, to teach others? So is there any particular along the way, in the vulnerability, hard knocks that stand out where you really learned and grew, and others then grew under you?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 14:36

yeah, like I said, there's when you've been in for 30 years or so.

Carol Park (Host): 14:39

There's so many to choose from which one does I pick?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 14:42

yeah, which hard knock, which time did they get knocked down to uh, to learn from? But, uh, and I will say, when you brought up the arena, um, you know we, we have you know the, the poster of Roosevelt, that Brene Brown talks about the man in the arena, and so you know some of those that that I think I had so much um opportunity because the mentors I had that you know, would pick you back up. Um, you fall down, you make a mistake and you know that set for me the type of leader that I wanted to be, and whether we went to a fire, and it'd be the first one that I'd have as an officer, as a captain, and it's the first one where you're first in, you're making all those critical decisions, the go, no go choice. How are we going to search? It's two o'clock in the morning and there's just so much to read within seconds and come up with a plan and communicate it, and so you're not going to do it. Well, but you think all that training it's going to go flawlessly, because in training it did, because it's such a safe environment, and you know when you're going to get into the environment, when you go back and look at the tapes of, uh, the recordings, and you just think, why did I say that on the radio? Uh, like, oh, my God, you know.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 16:11

And you, just you beat yourself up, um, and you go, you went through the promotional exam, you got the position, and then then now it's real, now it's real life, and so you realize that you're going to make mistakes, not everything is going to go as planned, and you're going to have to be flexible and be resilient to be able to catch up to this unfolding incident that's happening, and people are waiting for you to be able to give orders and to have this coordinated effect for all those team members all having the big plan in place of what to do and everyone's task and tactic is important because how they have to line up, and so there's a lot of pressure on that and you're not going to nail it for sure, and I have not been on one that I ever felt like I nailed, and so I used to be able to focus on, or I wouldn't say used to I. I think I, my mindset would always be how do I do it better? How do I do it better? Don't do this again, don't do that again. Make sure you do this.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 17:15

You missed this on that call and the journey really shifted when I started learning about. You know, how do I manage that? How do I manage the fact that I'm not going to get it right, um, that I'm not going to be perfect? How do I manage the learning that happens after that, not just the technical piece. Say this in the radio. Don't say this make sure I order this Um, cause I'm still going to fumble with that Cause every instance different Um. But how do I create a better mindset of thinking um processes, and you know that really, I think, helped me. One, the psychological safety we talk about is that you know, stop beating yourself up so much about this, that, uh, you know you're, you're so hypercritical that you're your worst enemy in this. Uh, everyone else is providing you great feedback, but they're not anywhere as hurtful as you are to yourself. And I had to learn that, uh, quite a bit, because I was like, oh there, they're going to pick on me and they're going to tell me that I did it wrong.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 18:16

No, it was me telling myself a story that that's what they were doing.

Carol Park (Host): 18:22

Yeah, that inner critic yeah.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 18:25

Yeah, they. You know people wanted you to do better. You know they'd bring it up, but it was a completely professional way.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 18:32

I shouldn't have feared that at all. I was creating a fear in my head, and I see it all the time in our officers that there's a lot of pressure on that to do it right.

Carol Park (Host): 18:44

Everyone's watching, yeah so it sounds like as you were learning that lesson for yourself. Part of probably self-compassion in there, versus just that inner critic that fears judgment but you're judging yourself so harshly so the self-compassion that comes. Critic that fears judgment, but you're judging yourself so harshly so the self-compassion that comes with that. So, as you learned that, then I'm sure in leadership that trickles down. So, does that? How do you then convey that I think we learn first and then we can teach it. Convey that I think we learn first and then we can teach it Right. So how did you learn that and then convey?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 20:05

that to those that you are leading. Yes, and I think that really lined up with me. You know, my biggest passion right now is really in training and education, and you know, passing that on and that's that's the. I think the most important piece to pass on is you know, how do you manage that piece of it, of the learning that comes from messing up from a failure, from those, and how to be able to handle it. It's not time to beat yourself up, and so I do. I do a ton of work with the national fire Academy, as well as um, the national wildland courting group, and teaching and a lot of different.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 20:42

You know, contract work to be able to, to show people how to learn, versus don't just go in and beat yourself up and think that that's going to change anything. Is that that's not really a great way to be able to learn? Is that that self-reflection is important? However, you know we're trying to teach a mindset, we're trying to teach growth. Uh, not well, you did it wrong, do it better. Well, that doesn't go very far.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 21:12

And so, when we go through and do fire scenarios, it's really important that we set a culture of learning, because you're giving them fire problems that are extremely difficult, that they're not going to just nail. There's going to be pieces they're going to miss. And so, when we go in and we teach these courses that I really love so much, is that we're really looking at the growth? Does that allow them to work through their fears, step up, take a chance. They're going to get it wrong and it's okay. Is that we're going to? We're going to take away all the positive things that went really well. We're going to do those again and when, each time that we do a scenario, we're going to add four more things that we do well, for more things we do well and just continue that process, versus harping on everything they did wrong.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 22:02

It's these four things were great. We're going to add these other three things. We're going to do it until they're flawless. They're that that positivity of like how to grow versus what not to do, I think is something we have to develop in how we train people. Not you can't just tell it to them and they get it, you have to show it to is something we have to develop in how we train people. Not you can't just tell it to them, and they get it. You have to show it to them, and you have to show them an environment of learning. When you're in these courses where it's comfortable for them in a very uncomfortable world, that they can try and fail and it's going to be okay because it's training and they're going to do it again. They're going to be better each time that they do it.

Carol Park (Host): 22:41

Yeah, I was thinking that you, you touched on the psychological safety which part of that is permission to fail, especially in training, as you're saying. So, it's permission to fail so that you can learn, do it better, so that as you started your story there on the beach, the crisis, you said it's like you weren't thinking wait, how do I do CPR and wait how do I? You know, it's just, it came to you because of the training and so permission to fail in training, so that which, again, even in real life it's. You also said nobody's ever going to get it perfect, but developing that trust within a team so that you can work together as a team, how do you empower your team members and what role does trust play in that?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 23:36

Oh, that's huge. I mean, everything comes down to the, the trust. And since we're kind of talking about the psychological safety aspect of that, um, it goes so far that you know the, the trust that they have, not only in the instructor who would be teaching them. You know these skills, uh, to know that you're not just setting up something to watch them fail and to point out that you're smarter than them. So, a lot of the training is really important.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 24:01

But when we do whether it's training or we're just doing an after-action review of how a call went, is that you know we break that into all of those pieces of. You know the engineer did the other right pump calculations that they were able to feel to make a good decision without asking for permission. If you know it may not be the exact way, but if they saw something and then they trust that their officer, you know, says, yeah, that's your job, do it. And everyone has, you know, has the big picture. That's that big piece where we can be really a cohesive unit. Everyone knows that we need to rescue the people, and we need to put the fire out and all of those pieces and everyone within that has that freedom to be able to work to their best efficiencies, the best decisions, as long as it fits that plan, and they're communicated. I don't care how we really got there, as long as we're communicating that we're getting there together. So if there is some type of obstacle or issue, that they're allowed to be able to voice that and say that I'm going to have to do this because this happened, versus an officer who would say, well, wait, let me see how this is going down, let me fix this, like no, you have to be able to trust the training of each one of those individuals the firefighter, the engineer, the officer, the battalion chief, the incident commander, whoever that is is that you have to be able to trust that they're making decisions that fit this big plan. They're trained to do that, so let them use their training to be able, you know, and that psychological safety is really, really important, and I remember, you know, a story that really resonated with me was in the culture code that you know, talked about a Navy SEAL officer, and when they would train, his words would resonate of the things they always believed in, which were let's see if you can punch holes in this plan.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 26:10

Does anyone have any great ideas and would encourage people to speak up, because we knew that not everyone's going to feel that safety to be able to say, hey, did you see that piece of the roof over there is getting ready to go in. They may not be, oh, surely someone else sees it. And I'm a rookie. I'm a rookie, I should just be focused on what I'm doing.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 26:44

But do they have that trust that they can say something and they're not going to be told shut up, you don't know anything or just sit down, and I'll tell you what you're thinking, and some of the old adages we've always heard in the fire service. But can they speak up and are they encouraged? That's what we have to do as leaders is not just expect that they will do that, not just expect that they will do that. We actually have to encourage it by opening up that conversation, that when we're all stressed about a situation, we haven't been in so you wouldn't have any great ideas does anyone, you know, have a a better plan than this one? Does anyone see a problem with the plan that I came up with? I want to know now, because we have to start moving in a direction moving in a direction.

Carol Park (Host): 27:23

Yeah, I hear you empowering them really from the time that they start their training. Not, oh, once you've had this many years now you can speak up like you're asking for it from the get-go. It's like raise your hand. We want to hear we were working as a team with that.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 27:38

Yeah, it was amazing in the fire services that you know we all come from these crazy backgrounds.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 27:46

You know I was able to use working for my father as a veterinarian on weekends when he didn't have staffing because we had a large animal rescue team that you know, if an animal got caught in a, you know, in some type of fencing or machinery, I got to use. Growing up as a veterinarian, we had another individual that had spent, I think, eight years as a Navy SEAL. Of course, we're going to allow him to be on the swift water rescue team and you know. And then there are people that had, you know, grown up and worked on a farm for years and years and just their knowledge of you know machinery and just so you know, everyone comes with that. And if you encourage it, like yeah, you know my previous job, this is how we did it, like it doesn't have to be the fire service way. It can be something that you learned, you know, from some other occupation. Whatever your background is, we all come from different worlds and encouraging that, you know, has to happen for better success for the team.

Carol Park (Host): 28:50

Yeah, that, those life experiences that individuals bring in. I was thinking even when you started with you know your dad was a veterinarian and those crisis moments of maybe someone's animal perhaps got hit by a cart, it's like even early on for you, crisis was kind of a part of your growing up that you kind of became familiar and so it wasn't so scary. Perhaps I mean not, it can still be scary, I get it but yeah, it was kind of part of your growing up and so you bring that into the teamwork too. Is there like if you thought of good leaders, bad leaders which I hate to be so black and white, because nobody's either a good leader or a bad leader but if you thought of traits of leaders, that would be a good leader trait versus bad leader traits? What might you? What do you think?

Doug Cupp (Guest): 29:50

You know the mentors that I had, that I truly, truly believed that they were just some of the best leaders that I you know, and just having them in person was just amazing, because you read about great leaders in books. There's not a shortage of leadership books on the market that talk about great leaders and I was fortunate to have them write in person and some of the things that I saw that they did that I hear all the time that people say these things, but then it's really hard to actually do it. This one individual that I worked for he was a captain on the truck and I worked for him. He became a fire chief in the neighboring district, chief Mirowski, and just a great, great man and a great leader. But he showed humility often even though that we saw him larger than life of just what his knowledge base was and how educated he was and just how well read and knew about fire departments all over the country who went through these things. There was never a shortage of that person's knowledge and his willing to share it in a way that was important to us because it could save our lives of leadership decisions, decision-making skills, how to lead in those times of chaos and crisis, but I actually got to see, you know that humility.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 31:17

He would be the first one that would speak up to say you know, I think we can do that one better. I necessarily don't like how that one went down and there's some things there that I just need to communicate better, and he just took ownership all the time and of course, we're thinking I thought it went fairly well and he was awesome. What went wrong? But he was showing us that it was okay to be able to say I can do better. I can do better and if I'm better than we as a team can be better and would take on this. The next training would be a planned because of an incident that we had had, you know, something that he felt we could do better, he immediately rolled it into next week. We're going to train on this. We got to fill in some of those gaps a little bit, but he made it just it wasn't picking on it, it wasn't hurtful, it wasn't uh, you guys suck, it was.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 32:13

I think we do better, and I think there was a few things I definitely could have done better, and I was pretty stressed, and he would just be open and honest about it. Um, and we saw that it worked. Um, no one dog piled him and said, yeah, that's right, you did, you should have been better. No one, no one would ever say that they would immediately just respecting because of that humility, um, and you know, the last one that I always love to quote on another Roosevelt uh aspect is the uh, no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 32:47

Uh, and this individual truly cared about us Absolutely. Not only is our psychological safety, our, our wellbeing, family life, how, how we led, you know, in us at work and outside of work. And you know he truly cared. That's why he spent so much time with us, training us, educating us and doing those aspects. But so those are the three. I think one is, you know, truly a devotion to caring um, the betterment of your team, uh, your department, the community, that that call for service, that you have that ability to be things better when things are. You know, when a community is in crisis or a families in crisis that you show up and you have the right skills, the right people and the right knowledge to make it better. Um, and he truly cared. And uh, there's the three things I think that I try to emulate from him is, you know, be, be humble, show humility and you know, care about the people that need you. You know that are dependent on you to provide that for them in the organization.

Carol Park (Host): 34:02

Yeah, and just being able to, as you said, he took responsibility, which is so much vulnerability, right, because you're opening up to yeah, I could have, I could have done this better. And then again, as it just trickles down and builds that within your team and then that trickles down to those that you serve, yeah, I hear it in everything that you're saying and sharing with us today. So, is there any like final words of wisdom of leadership, vulnerability and leadership that you might want to leave us with today?

Doug Cupp: 34:44

Yeah, I think you know some of the things and I love doing, you know, interviews and just talking to people that have these like interests, because it just sparks your memory again of things that you've either read or things that you've shared, that you instill for years in our organization. I think we're doing really well with this is truly providing that psychological safety but also teaching that as a leadership lesson and this is something that Chief Murawski always shared with me Talent's not teaching. You can't just tell someone, and they get it. You have to show action, and my behaviors and my action as a leader is so important because, yeah, I'm telling them things, but until they see how I behave, am I walking the walk, am I truly a person of my word? That builds that trust. And so those are the things that I needed them to be able to trust me that I do believe in the vulnerability. They can show vulnerability, they can show their weaknesses, they can wear all of those things right on their sleeves to where we can talk about it and work through it together. But they had to believe me and so, through a few of those situations, to make sure that I was a person of my word if someone was struggling at work.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 36:19

They were not pointed out, they were not made to feel embarrassed about it. We gave them time off. We gave them all the skills, the skills, the education, whatever they needed. We would make sure that we focused on that. No one was ever felt to be singled out and you know, praising those individuals that did show vulnerability, that it was successful. They got through whatever. They were challenged with this, you know, not unscathed, um, but they got through it and we were there to show them that they are a part of the team. That's for we will carry them and we will, uh, make sure that they are successful in the long run. Through that.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 37:00

But, um, those actions are really important because if I said, hey, yeah, we're going to do psychological safety, it's the greatest new thing. And then the first thing that I do is, you know, tell someone not now, I don't need to hear from you yeah, sounds like another complaint. No, I have to make sure that I'm active, listening. I really truly care about each one of their, their problems that they may be coming forward with they, they, they have to know that I truly do care, that I don't just create a policy and say don't do this anymore. You're an example. We have to be able to show that and through those actions because they have to be able to see it, to start trusting that it's okay to do that in this world, to be able to say, man, I messed up today, I could definitely do better, and we go, yeah, and we will, we will, we absolutely will, because that was the first step, knowing that we can do better. Yeah, wow.

Carol Park (Host): 37:58

It's the action, yes, the action. I totally understand why the team that was recruiting reached out to you the day that applications were due to say, hey, where's yours? And so your vulnerability, and that you found peace in knowing that they're looking for the right fit. So you didn't have to fit into something, you just had to be you. You just had to be yourself. You just had to put your application in and know why they chose you. Like I hear all of your leadership skills and you know I did. When I interviewed Holger the other day, just said to him and I want to say to you, thank you for your service, for your being a first responder, to dare to lead in this way, to have the courage to be vulnerable. So again, we're so honored to have you as a guest on the podcast today and just can't thank you enough for your service.

Doug Cupp (Guest): 39:03

Well, thank you so much, I greatly appreciate it. I love having those conversations. Well, thank you so much, I greatly appreciate it. I love having those conversations and you know we owe a lot to the fire service and you know their dedication and it's been a privilege to be able to serve in that way to my communities and as well to the service, and definitely appreciate your time and sharing this important topic of psychological safety and vulnerability and you know that's the future of the fire service right there.